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Naildrivingman
Naildrivingman
20. RE: Why is laying a horse down important
Oct 9 2008, 3:01 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 9 2008, 3:01 PM EDT
While I agree that the process should be done with kindness and humility to the horse, I've been told by a few people and my vet agrees that teaching a horse to lay down can be hard on the joints in the front. I don't know that I would teach it for the sake of teaching it (personally) perhaps I would try it once to truly show my horse that I'm on his side. But I have to say that I'm not exactly on board with this philosophy. 3  out of 4 found this valuable. Do you?    
MustangMike
MustangMike
21. RE: Why is laying a horse down important
Oct 10 2008, 1:12 AM EDT | Post edited: Oct 10 2008, 1:12 AM EDT
"While I agree that the process should be done with kindness and humility to the horse, I've been told by a few people and my vet agrees that teaching a horse to lay down can be hard on the joints in the front. I don't know that I would teach it for the sake of teaching it (personally) perhaps I would try it once to truly show my horse that I'm on his side. But I have to say that I'm not exactly on board with this philosophy."
Hmmm.... that's the first time I've heard that... I'll do some research, but from a logical standpoint, horses lie down on their own all the time, so I'm having difficulty with the concept that its harmful to teach them to do it on a cue rather than just willy-nilly when they feel like it. I wonder if the issue might be due to the added weight of a rider.... The horses I've taught to lay down, both from a ground cue as well as a saddle cue, seem to enjoy it, and I've never seen any discomfort or had any joint problems. I do, however, keep my horses on glucosamine and chondrointin as a matter of course, so that may be the reason I haven't experienced any issues alonmg those lines. I'll ask the 3 vets in my area that I use on a regular basis, and see if we can develop a consensus opinion.

Cheers,

Michael
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Naildrivingman
Naildrivingman
22. RE: Why is laying a horse down important
Oct 10 2008, 2:43 AM EDT | Post edited: Oct 10 2008, 2:43 AM EDT
"Hmmm.... that's the first time I've heard that... I'll do some research, but from a logical standpoint, horses lie down on their own all the time, so I'm having difficulty with the concept that its harmful to teach them to do it on a cue rather than just willy-nilly when they feel like it. I wonder if the issue might be due to the added weight of a rider....
"
I don't recall the spirit of the conversation, whether we were talking about a mounted horse or not. I realize that horses lay down on their own, but do they do it a lot? Personally, my horses lie down to roll after a warm ride, but other than in the first days of spring when the sun is warm, I haven't seen my horses lie down much. Obviously, I can't watch them 24 hours a day.
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MustangMike
MustangMike
23. RE: Why is laying a horse down important
Oct 10 2008, 4:40 AM EDT | Post edited: Oct 10 2008, 4:40 AM EDT
"I don't recall the spirit of the conversation, whether we were talking about a mounted horse or not. I realize that horses lay down on their own, but do they do it a lot? Personally, my horses lie down to roll after a warm ride, but other than in the first days of spring when the sun is warm, I haven't seen my horses lie down much. Obviously, I can't watch them 24 hours a day."
Yeah, the original thought brought up was laying a horse down as a means of gaining respect/control in order to BEGIN training, a la The Horse Whisperer style. The conversation later progressed to both mounted and unmounted laying down of a horse, so you were on topic. Of my two horses, the older one lays down every so often, the younger one spends a LOT of time on the ground (he's had me running out to check him for colic numerous times, but he's just a horse that likes to lay down a lot). Like most things with horses, if you ask 5 people the same question, you're likely to get 5 different points of view. I once had a VET tell me that Banamine was a laxative (it's a pain killer that helps relax a horse under colic stress, aiding in the poop process, but it's NOT, technically, a laxative).

Anyhow, I'm always interested in hearing the points of view that might broaden my knowledge base, so let's have some more input on this from other folks out there... talk to your vets and farriers and see what they think, then post it for the rest of us to digest.

Cheers,

Michael
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MustangMike
MustangMike
24. RE: Why is laying a horse down important
Oct 10 2008, 3:48 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 10 2008, 3:48 PM EDT
UPDATE: I've discussed the issue of whether or not laying a horse down, either from the ground or the saddle, is potentially harmful to the horse's joints, etc..., with the 3 vets I use in my area. The consensus being that, if the horse is in good general health, and the method used is not harsh, teaching the horse to lay down on cue (unmounted), poses no risk whatsoever. 1 of the 3 vets stated that, having a heavy person get on a horse lying down, or giving it a lie down cue mounted, may pose some risk, but, he stated that the risk is pretty slight. The other 2 vets think that a normal rider/horse weight ratio poses no significant risk of damage with the technique. As always, good, sound judgment is critical. If you suspect that your horse might have joint issues, or may be developing them, mounted cues are less than smart. Bear in mind, the ground here in Florida is mostly sugar sand, so it's pretty easy on horses.

So.... that the news from the West coast of Florida... I'm looking forward to hearing other opinions.

Cheers,

Michael
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Takelababy
Takelababy
25. RE: Why is laying a horse down important
Oct 9 2009, 4:45 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 9 2009, 4:45 PM EDT
Today my horse was laid down with the rope around his fetlock and two wraps on the horn. Yes he struggled, but was laid down gently. He fo't it and managed to rise whereupon he was laid down again. It took the 4th time before he relaxed and allowed himself to be patted and rubbed all over. The horse that was invited to stand was a different horse from before. He stood quietly, dropped his hip and allowed the trainer to stand in the stirrup and get rubbed all over. This horse had developed spookiness to a fine art and had no plans of changing. Patience and diligence had gotten his trainer nowhere. He was at a loss until I suggested we lay the horse down. I prefer to wait until the horse expels a big sigh before letting him up. I've laid down only a few horses in many years but the results were dramatic. It was basically the last ditch effort to salvage the horse or euthanasia. 5  out of 5 found this valuable. Do you?    

bamuntz
26. RE: Why is laying a horse down important
Nov 2 2009, 8:21 PM EST | Post edited: Nov 2 2009, 8:21 PM EST
"The scene in the movie "The Horse Whisperer" is awful in it's application and method, and, more importantly, for the situation depicted, major overkill. I've actually had to rehabilitate a horse who's owner tried that stupidity, and it took me almost 60 hours to gain that horse's trust just so I could BEGIN to work with him.

Hope that clarifies my position a bit. Basically, teaching a horse to lay down for NON-DOMINANCE reasons is a GOOD thing. Using the more assertive dominance method willy-nilly to resolve minor issues or just as a "standard" place to start training a horse, is a BAD thing.

Cheers,

Michael
"
Think ot the extra $ ie trainer overtime!!! or is that owner stupid tax!
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Takelababy
Takelababy
27. RE: Why is laying a horse down important
Nov 3 2009, 3:27 AM EST | Post edited: Nov 3 2009, 3:27 AM EST
I've trained horses for many years and opted to have a younger trainer lay the horse down. In 30 years of retraining spoiled horses only twice has there been a need to lay a horse down. There is a huge difference between teaching your horse to lie down and laying a horse down. The first already has trust in your, the second is extremely disrespectul and hasn't responded to other methods. 3  out of 3 found this valuable. Do you?    
foalhandler
foalhandler
28. RE: Why is laying a horse down important
Nov 6 2009, 7:23 PM EST | Post edited: Nov 6 2009, 7:23 PM EST
When I was on a trail ride at CC's ranch we came upon a herd of his horses and Pepto was in the group. When Chris saw him he got of his horse and approached Pepto. He rubbed him all over then laid him down and stretched out on top of him his face lying on Peptos neck. It was the most amazing thing to see and tears were pouring down my face as it was obvious Pepto was enjoying this magic moment as much as Chris. I will never forget this beautiful moment between man and horse. I have an amazing relationship with my mare and have sat on her when she is laying down and never realized how much she was trusting me but, I DO NOW!!! How blessed am I ! 4  out of 4 found this valuable. Do you?    

CoyoteBait
29. RE: Why is laying a horse down important
May 17 2010, 8:55 AM EDT | Post edited: May 17 2010, 8:55 AM EDT
Does anybody still have this episode? or know where I can find it?
I'm trying to do it for a bit of a different reason - trying to teach my horse to lay down. I have taught my horse to bow, but I haven't been able to get to laying down.
My horse will get his head and neck flat on the ground and just sit there, but won't go all the way to the ground.

I certainly don't want to use ropes to pull him down, especially since he's gone this far without me pulling on him, so I would really like to know how a natural horseman does it.
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MustangMike
MustangMike
30. RE: Why is laying a horse down important
May 17 2010, 4:49 PM EDT | Post edited: May 17 2010, 4:49 PM EDT
If you've got your horse that far, the rest is just a matter of patience... hold him there longer and longer... eventually, he'll finish the action. Perhaps a LITTLE pressure when he's down as far as he goes might give him the right answer... most horses will go all the way down on their own, just because it's easier than trying to maintain a 1/2 up, 1/2 down pose.

Let us know if this works for ya!

Michael
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CoyoteBait
31. RE: Why is laying a horse down important
May 17 2010, 9:04 PM EDT | Post edited: May 17 2010, 9:04 PM EDT
"If you've got your horse that far, the rest is just a matter of patience... hold him there longer and longer... eventually, he'll finish the action. Perhaps a LITTLE pressure when he's down as far as he goes might give him the right answer... most horses will go all the way down on their own, just because it's easier than trying to maintain a 1/2 up, 1/2 down pose.

Let us know if this works for ya!

Michael"
Thanks! I'll let you know how it works out - hopefully soon :)
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bamuntz
32. RE: Why is laying a horse down important
May 19 2010, 11:44 PM EDT | Post edited: May 19 2010, 11:44 PM EDT
Once Chris gets the horse lying down he then rocks the horse to sleep- how does he do this?

I have a mare that is very non trusting of people- she's not mean enough to hurt you - just doesn't really like the "feel of people" I am hoping lying her down and rocking her to sleep would gain her trust of people.
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MustangMike
MustangMike
33. RE: Why is laying a horse down important
May 20 2010, 1:18 AM EDT | Post edited: May 20 2010, 1:18 AM EDT
It might... just be sure that you use gentle persuasion rather than insistant... Do you find this valuable?    

bamuntz
34. RE: Why is laying a horse down important
May 20 2010, 4:30 AM EDT | Post edited: May 20 2010, 4:30 AM EDT
When you around this mare she is saying DO NOT TOUCH ME- I'll HURT YOU. I've basically ignored her message and got on her anyway. Once your on her she's a wonderful horse- happy about her work, non skittish. She has a SERIOUS headshy problem on the ground- once your on her you can mess with her ears all you want. I'm not sure if she's putting up a bluff -so you wont mess with her or whats going on.

I'm concerned about ignoring what she is saying to me- because I am worried that she will hurt someone.

For example she doesn't like her feed well enough -to allow you to stay there and pet her. She takes off.
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bamuntz
35. RE: Why is laying a horse down important
May 20 2010, 4:31 AM EDT | Post edited: May 20 2010, 4:31 AM EDT
Shall I say Clinton would make a serious mess of her!! 0  out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?    

CoyoteBait
36. RE: Why is laying a horse down important
May 20 2010, 11:04 AM EDT | Post edited: May 20 2010, 11:04 AM EDT
"Shall I say Clinton would make a serious mess of her!!"
No you may not! For one thing, the rules of this forum say there is no clinician bashing.
#2, Clinton, like Chris Cox, is an Excellent trainer and has an excellent track record for making excellent reliable horses out of just about anything.
#3, Clinton won the road to the Horse 2 years in a row, then a few years later, Chris Cox won it 2 years in a row.
#4, Chris Cox won his 2nd road to the horse while Clinton was one of the competitors.

So although you may not like Clinton, you really have to step back and see what he has done. He certainly doesn't have as nice of a demeanor as Chris has, but that doesn't take away from the fact that he's one of the best in the business and can make any horse do what he wants it to do.
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CoyoteBait
37. RE: Why is laying a horse down important
May 20 2010, 11:05 AM EDT | Post edited: May 20 2010, 11:05 AM EDT
"Once Chris gets the horse lying down he then rocks the horse to sleep- how does he do this?

I have a mare that is very non trusting of people- she's not mean enough to hurt you - just doesn't really like the "feel of people" I am hoping lying her down and rocking her to sleep would gain her trust of people. "
Did you see the episode recently?
I would still like to get my eyeballs on this episode if anybody has it.
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bamuntz
38. RE: Why is laying a horse down important
May 20 2010, 12:26 PM EDT | Post edited: May 20 2010, 12:26 PM EDT
"Shall I say Clinton would make a serious mess of her!!"
Perhaps I should rephrase that.......The mare shuts down when you try to de-sensitise her. She is so terrified!!! She doesnt try to hurt her self-but you dont get any break throughs either. That's the reason that I made that comment. I will say my mare is unlike anything I've ever worked with. Her statement remains the same- dont touch me and I wont hurt you. She is also the Alpha mare.
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MustangMike
MustangMike
39. RE: Why is laying a horse down important
May 20 2010, 12:55 PM EDT | Post edited: May 20 2010, 12:55 PM EDT
One of the things I like to relay to folks about horses... Training is like cooking bacon --> when it starts to smoke, turn the heat DOWN, not up. When the person is frustrated, it's absolutely certain that the horse beat you there 5 minutes ago... PATIENCE, PATIENCE, and More Patience... Kindness will rule the day... 2  out of 2 found this valuable. Do you?    
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